I agree with Jonathan about AFF2. I have participated in many webinars (all very well done) but even so I still have a very difficult time doing searches of any kind. AFF1 was so easy to use and I wish it was still there. Michael Harmon Census Program Coordinator San Luis Obispo Council of Governments San Luis Obispo, California From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces@chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lupton Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 8:41 AM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: [CTPP] Census/ACS data downloads I much appreciate the efforts by Elaine Murakami and others to help with the AFF2 problem by providing the recent webinars in AFF2 and Data Ferret. I must reluctantly confess that I am still struggling, and would like to know how other members on the CTPP list serve are faring. Here are my conclusions at the moment: 1. AFF2 is useful for obtaining pre-organized data profiles (despite its clunky and counter-intuitive interface), but in my experience it's still hard - even with the benefit of some training - to really drill down into the kind of esoteric data I sometimes need. 2. Data Ferret is great for batches, like downloading a fair amount of data for multiple geographies (like all BGs in a county, etc.) but I'm having a hard time drilling down to the highly specific items I need. My latest troubles involve trying to get employment/labor force participation by age and sex for counties and/or my metro area from SF-3 in Census 2000. I have been able, with the help of Data Ferret, to obtain the table numbers (PCT 3500-PCT 3518), but Data Ferret can't seem to give me the figures I need in a single download, and multiple downloads are proving error-prone and troublesome. Searching the table numbers in AFF2 yields the typically useless results. My search of the Missouri State Data Center site, while much appreciated, hasn't yielded the results I need. My own State Data Center (Arkansas) has some useful profiles, but again not as specific as I need. Does anyone else have tips? I feel like I could use further webinars on Data Ferret or - just possibly - AFF2, although I'm deeply suspicious of trying to make anything useful out of AFF2, since results so far have been disappointing. The seminar on Data Ferret back in December was helpful, but didn't have a lot of in-depth training on large downloads, highly specific data needs, etc. I'm deep in 'flyover country,' and hence there's a lack of training and information exchange available. Surely others face the same issues. Does anyone else want more web-based training, too? Jonathan Lupton AICP Research Planner Metroplan Little Rock, Arkansas

Jonathan, Sounds like you have found the table and have a simple geography (counties). I would have downloaded the table as a csv file and open it in excel. Manipulate it there to remove the variables you don't want and calc the LFPR. Are you looking for something that will extract the exact cells (total pop and in LF) you need? You could use the "modify table" function in AFF but I agree - at this time that is kinda clunky and slow - because you can only make one change at a time. But to me AFF to Excel is much faster than DataFerrett for pulling a table for multiple geographies. I guess it is just what you are comfortable with. Using the info, Mara Kaminowitz from Baltimore sent out earlier this month, once you know the specific table you want, you can construct a direct link like this one which will pull table PCT 35 from 2000 SF3 for Arkansas statewide and all its counties: http://factfinder2.census.gov/bkmk/table/1.0/en/DEC/00_SF3/PCT035/0400000US… BTW - this table is also available by race as table PCT079 in SF4. Its link to the data for Hispanics would look like this: http://factfinder2.census.gov/bkmk/table/1.0/en/DEC/00_SF4/PCT079/0400000US… I have found that that the text search feature has greatly improved in AFF2. I typed "labor force age sex" (219 results) then selected 2000 SF3 (1 result). Now pick your geography. A handful of clicks got me to the data. If you are not familiar with the tables in the census data files, the search is actually improving into a useful tool. Nancy Gemignani California State Census Data Center Demographic Research Unit (916) 327-0103 ext 2550 From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces@chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lupton Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 8:41 AM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: [CTPP] Census/ACS data downloads I much appreciate the efforts by Elaine Murakami and others to help with the AFF2 problem by providing the recent webinars in AFF2 and Data Ferret. I must reluctantly confess that I am still struggling, and would like to know how other members on the CTPP list serve are faring. Here are my conclusions at the moment: 1. AFF2 is useful for obtaining pre-organized data profiles (despite its clunky and counter-intuitive interface), but in my experience it's still hard - even with the benefit of some training - to really drill down into the kind of esoteric data I sometimes need. 2. Data Ferret is great for batches, like downloading a fair amount of data for multiple geographies (like all BGs in a county, etc.) but I'm having a hard time drilling down to the highly specific items I need. My latest troubles involve trying to get employment/labor force participation by age and sex for counties and/or my metro area from SF-3 in Census 2000. I have been able, with the help of Data Ferret, to obtain the table numbers (PCT 3500-PCT 3518), but Data Ferret can't seem to give me the figures I need in a single download, and multiple downloads are proving error-prone and troublesome. Searching the table numbers in AFF2 yields the typically useless results. My search of the Missouri State Data Center site, while much appreciated, hasn't yielded the results I need. My own State Data Center (Arkansas) has some useful profiles, but again not as specific as I need. Does anyone else have tips? I feel like I could use further webinars on Data Ferret or - just possibly - AFF2, although I'm deeply suspicious of trying to make anything useful out of AFF2, since results so far have been disappointing. The seminar on Data Ferret back in December was helpful, but didn't have a lot of in-depth training on large downloads, highly specific data needs, etc. I'm deep in 'flyover country,' and hence there's a lack of training and information exchange available. Surely others face the same issues. Does anyone else want more web-based training, too? Jonathan Lupton AICP Research Planner Metroplan Little Rock, Arkansas

Ms. Gemignani: Thanks for the tips with AFF2. I tried, but failed. I'll share this with the list serve because it may be instructive to others. I'm probably missing something simple, but this may help reveal the (multiple) fallacies of AFF2. After selecting the county geography, I did as you said in the message below: I typed in "labor force age sex." This was great. I got a long list of 2010 ACS tables, but at least they resembled what I'm looking for. Then I typed in "2000 SF3" and got: "No tables, files or documents were found that match . blah blah." What am I doing wrong here? When I try scrolling through the multiple pages of results, I go through two pages of 2010 ACS. Then I run into 2009 ACS. How many dozens of pages must I scroll through to get Census 2000? I also can't help but use this as commentary on AFF2. I'm a data user with years of experience and training. If I can't easily find what I need, what hope does the general public have? Very little of Census 2000 is available in printed form. Will it become the "dark age" Census, that nobody can get to? Again, thanks for taking the time. I would like nothing more than to be able to make full use of AFF2. Jonathan Lupton From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces@chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Gemignani, Nancy Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 1:22 PM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: Re: [CTPP] Census/ACS data downloads Jonathan, Sounds like you have found the table and have a simple geography (counties). I would have downloaded the table as a csv file and open it in excel. Manipulate it there to remove the variables you don't want and calc the LFPR. Are you looking for something that will extract the exact cells (total pop and in LF) you need? You could use the "modify table" function in AFF but I agree - at this time that is kinda clunky and slow - because you can only make one change at a time. But to me AFF to Excel is much faster than DataFerrett for pulling a table for multiple geographies. I guess it is just what you are comfortable with. Using the info, Mara Kaminowitz from Baltimore sent out earlier this month, once you know the specific table you want, you can construct a direct link like this one which will pull table PCT 35 from 2000 SF3 for Arkansas statewide and all its counties: http://factfinder2.census.gov/bkmk/table/1.0/en/DEC/00_SF3/PCT035/0400000US0 5.05000|0400000US05 BTW - this table is also available by race as table PCT079 in SF4. Its link to the data for Hispanics would look like this: http://factfinder2.census.gov/bkmk/table/1.0/en/DEC/00_SF4/PCT079/0400000US0 5.05000|0400000US05/popgroup~400 I have found that that the text search feature has greatly improved in AFF2. I typed "labor force age sex" (219 results) then selected 2000 SF3 (1 result). Now pick your geography. A handful of clicks got me to the data. If you are not familiar with the tables in the census data files, the search is actually improving into a useful tool. Nancy Gemignani California State Census Data Center Demographic Research Unit (916) 327-0103 ext 2550 From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces@chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lupton Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 8:41 AM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: [CTPP] Census/ACS data downloads I much appreciate the efforts by Elaine Murakami and others to help with the AFF2 problem by providing the recent webinars in AFF2 and Data Ferret. I must reluctantly confess that I am still struggling, and would like to know how other members on the CTPP list serve are faring. Here are my conclusions at the moment: 1. AFF2 is useful for obtaining pre-organized data profiles (despite its clunky and counter-intuitive interface), but in my experience it's still hard - even with the benefit of some training - to really drill down into the kind of esoteric data I sometimes need. 2. Data Ferret is great for batches, like downloading a fair amount of data for multiple geographies (like all BGs in a county, etc.) but I'm having a hard time drilling down to the highly specific items I need. My latest troubles involve trying to get employment/labor force participation by age and sex for counties and/or my metro area from SF-3 in Census 2000. I have been able, with the help of Data Ferret, to obtain the table numbers (PCT 3500-PCT 3518), but Data Ferret can't seem to give me the figures I need in a single download, and multiple downloads are proving error-prone and troublesome. Searching the table numbers in AFF2 yields the typically useless results. My search of the Missouri State Data Center site, while much appreciated, hasn't yielded the results I need. My own State Data Center (Arkansas) has some useful profiles, but again not as specific as I need. Does anyone else have tips? I feel like I could use further webinars on Data Ferret or - just possibly - AFF2, although I'm deeply suspicious of trying to make anything useful out of AFF2, since results so far have been disappointing. The seminar on Data Ferret back in December was helpful, but didn't have a lot of in-depth training on large downloads, highly specific data needs, etc. I'm deep in 'flyover country,' and hence there's a lack of training and information exchange available. Surely others face the same issues. Does anyone else want more web-based training, too? Jonathan Lupton AICP Research Planner Metroplan Little Rock, Arkansas

Okay, I finally got what I was looking for. Many thanks to Nancy Gemignani - you got me on the right track. I had to scroll through seven screens of ACS 2010, 2009, 2008, etc. to finally retrieve Census 2000 SF-3. Does anyone know if there's a shortcut without all this scrolling? I remember asking about this at the AFF2 training webinar in October, and I don't think there was a good answer. Once ACS 2011, 2012, 2013, etc are up there it may take 27 screens to get back to Census 2000. Patty, I agree that the AFF2 downloads are also sometimes a mess. I have designed a macro that takes out the MOE columns, which are reliably every other column. It's scary to run, because it feels like taking a meat cleaver to your data, but actually works well. You can save your data first just to be safe. I remain astonished that they took something that worked pretty well ("Legacy" FactFinder) and, rather than building on what was good, they junked it, put on dunce caps, and came up with the resulting mess. I think it's an "emperor with no clothes" situation, the typical product of top-down hierarchical bureaucracy in which underlings know there's a problem, but the information isn't allowed to climb the command chain. But I digress. Deep linking looks promising, but working for an MPO I'm wearing a lot of hats, and haven't found time to go there yet. Thanks everybody for the helpful tips. I'd still like another webinar on advanced use of Data Ferret. Jonathan Lupton From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces@chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Patty Becker Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 3:18 PM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: Re: [CTPP] Census/ACS data downloads The best way to get a specific data set is to select it by clicking on topics, then dataset. Then all the tables you bring up are restricted to those in that one dataset. The ACS labor force/age/sex table is B23001. After selecting the dataset, you can type the table number into the selection box and click go, and then it will bring up the one table and you can click the box and "view." It's still way too many clicks If you want 2000 data, select 2000 SF3 as a dataset and then just type "labor force" in the box. You'll get an assortment of tables and you can choose the one you want. We all hate AFF2, although our lists of pet peeves may vary in content. Mine are (1) you can only retrieve one table at a time, and (2) the download options are horrible. The simple csv option to be opened in Excel does not exist. When you select the xls option, you get a table which has left-justified numbers and weird columns. You can fix this, but it's a burden. If instead you choose to get a csv table for use as a database, the rows and columns transpose. This is fine if you have a lot of geographic areas and a table with few cells, but lousy otherwise. If you try to transpose it back the "estimate" and "margin of error" rows are interleaved. There simply are no good download options. Patty Becker At 03:29 PM 2/17/2012, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_01CCED80.96637900" Content-Language: en-us Ms. Gemignani: Thanks for the tips with AFF2. I tried, but failed. I'll share this with the list serve because it may be instructive to others. I'm probably missing something simple, but this may help reveal the (multiple) fallacies of AFF2. After selecting the county geography, I did as you said in the message below: I typed in "labor force age sex." This was great. I got a long list of 2010 ACS tables, but at least they resembled what I'm looking for. Then I typed in "2000 SF3" and got: "No tables, files or documents were found that match . blah blah." What am I doing wrong here? When I try scrolling through the multiple pages of results, I go through two pages of 2010 ACS. Then I run into 2009 ACS. How many dozens of pages must I scroll through to get Census 2000? I also can't help but use this as commentary on AFF2. I'm a data user with years of experience and training. If I can't easily find what I need, what hope does the general public have? Very little of Census 2000 is available in printed form. Will it become the "dark age" Census, that nobody can get to? Again, thanks for taking the time. I would like nothing more than to be able to make full use of AFF2. Jonathan Lupton From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [ mailto:ctpp-news-bounces@chrispy.net <mailto:ctpp-news-bounces@chrispy.net> ] On Behalf Of Gemignani, Nancy Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 1:22 PM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: Re: [CTPP] Census/ACS data downloads Jonathan, Sounds like you have found t------=_NextPart_000_0036_01CCED80.96637900-- --===============4682139925125998441== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)ryoko.chrispy.net http://ryoko.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news --===============4682139925125998441==-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- Patricia C. (Patty) Becker 248/354-6520 APB Associates/SEMCC FAX 248/354-6645 28300 Franklin Road Home 248/355-2428 Southfield, MI 48034 pbecker(a)umich.edu

Jonathan, One of the search options in the "TOPICS" box on the left is "DATASET". A tip that has helped me is to drill down as far as I can using those boxes on the left (geography, dataset, variable... I usually do it in this order and have had good luck) and what I am looking for generally arrives on the first page. Another tip, be sure to clear your basket between searches. If you have elements of a previous search it can get confusing and will lead to frustrating messages about variables or geographies not being available. Kendra Watkins Senior Planner Mid-Region Council of Governments 809 Copper NW, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505)724-3601 From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces@chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lupton Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:57 PM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: Re: [CTPP] Census/ACS data downloads Okay, I finally got what I was looking for. Many thanks to Nancy Gemignani - you got me on the right track. I had to scroll through seven screens of ACS 2010, 2009, 2008, etc. to finally retrieve Census 2000 SF-3. Does anyone know if there's a shortcut without all this scrolling? I remember asking about this at the AFF2 training webinar in October, and I don't think there was a good answer. Once ACS 2011, 2012, 2013, etc are up there it may take 27 screens to get back to Census 2000. Patty, I agree that the AFF2 downloads are also sometimes a mess. I have designed a macro that takes out the MOE columns, which are reliably every other column. It's scary to run, because it feels like taking a meat cleaver to your data, but actually works well. You can save your data first just to be safe. I remain astonished that they took something that worked pretty well ("Legacy" FactFinder) and, rather than building on what was good, they junked it, put on dunce caps, and came up with the resulting mess. I think it's an "emperor with no clothes" situation, the typical product of top-down hierarchical bureaucracy in which underlings know there's a problem, but the information isn't allowed to climb the command chain. But I digress. Deep linking looks promising, but working for an MPO I'm wearing a lot of hats, and haven't found time to go there yet. Thanks everybody for the helpful tips. I'd still like another webinar on advanced use of Data Ferret. Jonathan Lupton From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces@chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Patty Becker Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 3:18 PM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: Re: [CTPP] Census/ACS data downloads The best way to get a specific data set is to select it by clicking on topics, then dataset. Then all the tables you bring up are restricted to those in that one dataset. The ACS labor force/age/sex table is B23001. After selecting the dataset, you can type the table number into the selection box and click go, and then it will bring up the one table and you can click the box and "view." It's still way too many clicks If you want 2000 data, select 2000 SF3 as a dataset and then just type "labor force" in the box. You'll get an assortment of tables and you can choose the one you want. We all hate AFF2, although our lists of pet peeves may vary in content. Mine are (1) you can only retrieve one table at a time, and (2) the download options are horrible. The simple csv option to be opened in Excel does not exist. When you select the xls option, you get a table which has left-justified numbers and weird columns. You can fix this, but it's a burden. If instead you choose to get a csv table for use as a database, the rows and columns transpose. This is fine if you have a lot of geographic areas and a table with few cells, but lousy otherwise. If you try to transpose it back the "estimate" and "margin of error" rows are interleaved. There simply are no good download options. Patty Becker At 03:29 PM 2/17/2012, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_01CCED80.96637900" Content-Language: en-us Ms. Gemignani: Thanks for the tips with AFF2. I tried, but failed. I'll share this with the list serve because it may be instructive to others. I'm probably missing something simple, but this may help reveal the (multiple) fallacies of AFF2. After selecting the county geography, I did as you said in the message below: I typed in "labor force age sex." This was great. I got a long list of 2010 ACS tables, but at least they resembled what I'm looking for. Then I typed in "2000 SF3" and got: "No tables, files or documents were found that match ... blah blah..." What am I doing wrong here? When I try scrolling through the multiple pages of results, I go through two pages of 2010 ACS. Then I run into 2009 ACS. How many dozens of pages must I scroll through to get Census 2000? I also can't help but use this as commentary on AFF2. I'm a data user with years of experience and training. If I can't easily find what I need, what hope does the general public have? Very little of Census 2000 is available in printed form. Will it become the "dark age" Census, that nobody can get to? Again, thanks for taking the time. I would like nothing more than to be able to make full use of AFF2. Jonathan Lupton From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [ mailto:ctpp-news-bounces@chrispy.net <mailto:ctpp-news-bounces@chrispy.net> ] On Behalf Of Gemignani, Nancy Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 1:22 PM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: Re: [CTPP] Census/ACS data downloads Jonathan, Sounds like you have found t------=_NextPart_000_0036_01CCED80.96637900-- --===============4682139925125998441== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)ryoko.chrispy.net http://ryoko.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news --===============4682139925125998441==-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- Patricia C. (Patty) Becker 248/354-6520 APB Associates/SEMCC FAX 248/354-6645 28300 Franklin Road Home 248/355-2428 Southfield, MI 48034 pbecker(a)umich.edu