Ken: Tom Marchwinski's insights are very good. I agree with you, Ken, related to LRT not being the same as streetcar. But I strongly believe that LRT should be in its own category and not lumped in with street car nor with the urban rail descriptors, whcih. Since the questionnaire will be the same throughout the country, it will need to provide good data in various situations such as New Jersey and San Francisco where all steel-wheel modes exist, systems that are 100% dedicated guideway (urban rail-like), systems that are a 100% mixed traffic or circulator (streetcar-like), and those that are a mix of the two. In this way, the various areas can sort out the data (hopefully) the way they need to. If "metro" should be included in the subway/elevated category, I recommend using "metrorail" instead for the reasons expressed in other emails. This might lead to some confusion in places such as Dallas where responders might answer either metrorail or light rail, but this could be sorted out. San Francisco might have a harder time figuring it out between BART and Muni Metro. And just to add more ambiguity to this, the terminology will work only until a rubber-tired "metro" is installed somewhere in the States. I could support Tom M's recommendation to use "elevated/subway" only although I think the LRT ambiguity would come into the questionnaire again. I suggest that "railroad" might be confusing. Not sure how the evaluations of the ACS has viewed the responses to this and if this simple one word descriptor has been sufficient. Eliminate this entirely and use the "RAIL - Commuter, Amtrak (or long distance)" instead. Best Regards, Scott P. Seeburger Planning and Environmental Management Florida Department of Transportation--District 4 954-777-4632 (O) *************** -----Original Message----- From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces@chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Ken.Cervenka(a)dot.gov Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 4:24 PM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: [CTPP] American Commuter Survey (ACS): The Means of Transportation Question Hello, As you may know, the Census Bureau's "means of transportation" question on the current American Community Survey questionnaire (as well as the previous Census 2000 "long form") is as follows: How did this person usually get to work LAST WEEK? If this person usually used more than one method of transportation during the trip, mark (X) the box of the one used for most of the distance. __ Car, truck, or van __ Bus or trolley bus __ Streetcar or trolley car __ Subway or elevated __ Railroad __ Ferryboat __ Taxicab __ Motorcycle __ Bicycle __ Walked __ Worked at home __ Other method Here at U.S. DOT, we (meaning FTA, FHWA, and BTS) are discussing whether updated descriptions might make more sense for the three public transportation categories associated with use of rail: __ Streetcar or trolley car __ Subway or elevated __ Railroad However, any changes to these three categories (or even collapsing these to a single "rail transit" category) will, if ultimately approved for testing, require a formal and carefully-controlled "ACS content change" test to be conducted by the Census Bureau in 2013 and 2014. So this is a very big deal. If three rail-related categories are maintained, here is one approach under consideration for future testing: __ Streetcar or trolley rail __ Subway, metro, or light rail __ Commuter railroad or Amtrak Or maybe a variation that makes it clear(er) each of these choices refer to a rail transit mode: __ Rail - streetcar or trolley __ Rail - subway, metro, or light rail __ Rail - commuter railroad or Amtrak If you have any comments about what seems to make the most sense from the viewpoint of a future ACS respondent and/or transportation data analyst, please send me an email and I will summarize all comments received in a future email to this listserv (along with your name as the author, unless you wish to be anonymous). But feel free to reply directly to this listserv with your observations! Ken Cervenka FTA Office of Planning and Environment 202/493-0512 *************** -----Original Message----- From: ctpp-news-bounces(a)chrispy.net [mailto:ctpp-news-bounces@chrispy.net] On Behalf Of Ken.Cervenka(a)dot.gov Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 5:55 PM To: ctpp-news(a)chrispy.net Subject: [CTPP] American Commuter Survey (ACS): The Means of Transportation Question (follow-up summary #1) Hello, Shown below my December 11 email to the CTPP listserv are all responses I have received so far (either emails directly to me, or emails that were sent to the listserv). If I left anyone out, or made any mistake in copying your original response, I assure you that was not intentional. Here at FTA we thought most analysts these days (as well as transit riders) would prefer to think of modern light rail systems as providing a level of service in terms of speed to riders that is much closer to that of traditional "subway systems," and therefore clearly distinguishable from either "streetcars" or "modern streetcars." But several commenters are specifically noting "light rail" fits better with the streetcar category, so this deserves some careful consideration of the pros and cons. Thanks to EVERYONE who has responded, and by all means I encourage you to provide additional comments, either about the location for "light rail" or anything else about the "means of transportation" question that inspires you to write. If more comments are received, I plan to send out another summary of all responses next week to the CTPP listserv. I also plan to send the next summary to the TMIP listserv, for even further deliberations from the Census user community prior to U.S. DOT's preparation in early 2013 of a formal proposal for an "ACS Content Change" test. Sincerely, Ken Cervenka FTA Office of Planning and Environment ***************** From: Krishnan Viswanathan I personally like the second classification: __ Rail - streetcar or trolley __ Rail - subway, metro, or light rail __ Rail - commuter railroad or Amtrak My reasons are the following: 1) As a survey respondent it removes the confusion regd. what to answer faced with this question. A regular respondent will say that they take the train, they do not distinguish between subway/light rail vs commuter rail and calling it out in this manner - where we we have rail broken into subcategories will help the respondent choose the right type of rail. 2) As an analyst, having this classification makes it easier to compare across and within modes and geographies. What i mean is this - lets say we did not distinguish that these are 3 rail modes which are classified further as streetcar/light/commuter and geog A has all 3 rail modes available, geog B has only 2 rail modes, and geog C has only one rail mode available. Doing this classification allows the analyst to determine that in all 3 geographies, when a respondent choice is one common mode, it means the same thing and not different things to different respondents in different geographies. It will also allow for better mode choice estimation if the nest definitions are directly from the survey data and not solely reliant on analyst judgement. Further, when looking at results/doing studies later on it might be easier to consider what the aggregate rail mode comprises of when compared to auto and bus. ***************** From: Wendell Cox Light rail does not belong with subway and metro. It belongs with trolley or street car. Other than that either of the two alternatives would be fine. But if light rail is to be twinned with metro, better to stay with what we have. ***************** From: Patricia Becker This is going to be very difficult to test because so few ACS respondents have access to any of these. Does the word "metro" mean the same thing in all metro areas, or are there some where it refers to bus transportation? I'm not sure the term "rail" resonates well everywhere, either. I would suggest that FDOT gather information from the states and metros where rail commuting is a feasible option and find out what people call it, or how it's referred to, such as "metro" in the Washington DC areas. ***************** From: Barb Mee I am not responding as a professional because I am neither a data nor a transit pro. I do answer census questions when asked though, and really like the rail - ... approach. I wonder if elevated ought to stay in the description, though. While I think the only remaining el is in Chicago, I imagine lots and lots of folks use it, and it seems like it's worth it to get the right answer. ***************** From: Wendell Cox [In response to Patricia Becker's comment] metro (didnt capitalize, because it refers in this context to a type of rail system, not a name of a rail system) is the international term but not used extensively in this country. Probably the best term is subway/elevated. The point is that metros/subways and elevates are fully grade separated, and faster... as opposed to light rail, which is rarely, if ever, fully grade separated and thus is generally slower and has much lower capacities. ***************** From: Steve Polzin Glad you are looking at this. I like the idea of adding light rail. In the new start locations this is commonly known by the public as light rail. I do think it fits better with streetcar and trolley. Since the question refers to last week it is almost certainly travel in their home town (unless they were out of town for the majority of the week) so one could set up logic checks to test the reasonableness of the responses. I wish they would also shift to asking about the mode on the most recent day they commuted to work. Transit is more commonly an occasional mode (compared to auto) and hence it is not uncommon for folks to use it a few time per week but not the majority and very common for folks to have it as a normal mode but not exclusive mode leading to some overstating of transit commuting use. NHTS confirms a significant difference between actual and usual mode for transit. Would be nice to shift to actual travel day mode. ***************** From: Andrew Rohne I like the second classification, but I want "metro" (whether capitalized or not) stricken from it. Our bus system has "Go*Metro" all over the sides of their busses, and a fairly decent proportion of their riders may not understand that metro = subway on the form, I wouldn't want them confused. ***************** From: Tom Worker-Braddock [In response to Andrew Rohne's comment] Agreed on removing the word "metro". A wide variety of non-rail transit systems incorporate the word "metro" or "Metro" into their branding or service schemes. The Kansas City transportation authority extensively brands itself as "The Metro", but doesn't have a single rail component in the system (although some are being planned). ***************** From: Rob Case I think it best to clarify what exists today, as opposed to creating "new" categories, in order that comparisons may be made (albeit with caveats) to the past. Therefore, I think that light rail is often a "street" mode and most users would have been answering "Streetcar or trolley rail" because they all ride in the street. And, like Krishnan, for clarity, I like the use of "Rail - " as a prefix. So, placing the most frequent answers first in the list within each response, I'm in favor of: __ Rail - light rail, streetcar, or trolley __ Rail - subway, metro, or elevated __ Rail - commuter rail or Amtrak PS It's sort of picky, but I think "commuter rail" is more common and more accurate than "commuter railroad" (the actual "railroad" can be owned by one company and used by it for freight, by Amtrak, and by a commuter rail outfit). ***************** From: Arash Mirzaei It does not seem too difficult to collect all the names used for all transit modes in the country before any suggestion is extended to ACS office. After all, these transit modes are provided by transit agencies and they know, as providers, what their modes are. The result would be a list of transit service names and the modes. This product provides an objective source of data for making a recommendation. If printing costs are not prohibitive, a more advanced way of using the above list would be in the contextual design of the ACS form. More meaningful terms can be used for each region in which the ACS is being conducted. So, the form offers most possible modes with locally familiar names based on the location of the respondent. ***************** From: Mike Harmon I think the use of vans (Vanpools) needs to be separated from the other options since their use is increasing so much. ***************** From: Alan Pisarski [In response to Mike Harmon's comment about vans (Vanpools)] A really intriguing idea. a little complicated but still worth considering. ***************** Ken- This is Tom Marchwinski of New Jersey Transit. As one of the few areas in the country that actually has significant amounts of people using all of the rail modes under discussion, and as one who makes use of the data from this question not just for modeling but also to look at mode shares, and understand transit travel patterns and demographics, I would like to weigh in on this. You should know that I approached FWHA about 8 years ago on this very issue, and proposed that with all of the new Light Rail systems in the US, including two new systems here in New Jersey (as well as having an older, pre-1945 trolley line, the Newark Subway now called Newark Light Rail)that it was time to have a separate Light Rail mode question. However, as you indicate, it takes two years of testing to get a question change, and nothing was advanced. So I am glad to see this proposal finally come about. Here is some real world experience both with full census and ACS in an area th! at has all of these modes. 1. I believe Light Rail, streetcar and Trolley should be a separate mode. If you want to say "Rail- Light Rail, Streetcar and Trolley", that would be OK. Light rail is running in so many regions now, and it really is a separate mode from the other two rail types, both in terms of vehicle type, use in both mixed street and grade separation, and also visibility, as well as type of seating in most cases. 2. Keep Subway/Elevated as a separate mode. "Rail- Subway/Elevated" IF you want to add Metro, you could, but I would be very cautious about this. You should survey how many agencies, including Bus Only systems call themselves Metro. I am concerned that many survey respondents who take a system with the word "Metro" in the title will see this response and assume it applies, when it may mean the name of the system. As Wendell Cox indicated, Metro is not in common use in the US, and maybe this could be tested as an addition by the Census . There could be a component of US born vs. non-US born on this issue, so I think it can be tested, but I am wary of confusion with system names that include Metro. Even in the DC area, "Metro" usually refers to the subway system, but there is also MetroBus, and some people may get confused. 3. My Third Choice would be "Rail- Commuter or Long-Distance Railroad". I use the word long distance rather than AMTRAK, since AMTRAK is technically a company name, and who knows if it will be named that for 20 years, or even in operation. Using the word "commuter" also is better because most new systems of this type are called commuter railroad. Also, in an old system like we have in New Jersey , with over 250 commuter rail stations, census data still shows some confusion between "Railroad" and "Subway/Elevated". In areas with no Subway in proximity to the commuter rail stations, a significant number of people will check Subway/elevated as a mode, so we have to add them together to get a commuter rail total. By putting or at least testing the word commuter with railroad, it makes it clearer that it is separate from Subway. I think this would help. Long Distance Railroad I think also covers AMTRAK but makes it more generic, and does not tie answers to AMTRAK specifically. I believe Light Rail should be separate because it really is different than either commuter rail or subway. In Northern New Jersey , we have competition between subway (PATH system) vs. commuter rail, and in limited circumstances Light Rail. Because we have a historic trolley now light rail service in Newark, most people checked "Railroad" or Subway /Elevated. Without the word light rail, very few people check "trolley" for any of our three LRT Systems, which in addition to Newark are Hudson Bergen Light Rail, and the River Line LRT in Southern NJ. I would also strongly object to lumping all rail in one category. In areas like NJ, NY, Philadelphia, Boston, etc, where there are multiple rail modes, we do use the differences to estimate rail vs. LRT or rail vs. Subway/elevated submodal spilts. Granted it is more difficult because of lower sampling, but our own survey data does show (and if you are interested we can provide some of the details) that there are significant demographic, choice, and submodal split differences that are important to maintain and understand. WE need the current split of three rail modes to continue. As I indicated, having one for LRT/Trolley, one for Subway/Elevated, and one for commuter rail etc. is the best way to maintain both long term historic trend data and also detailed submodal data both for model validation, demographics of riders, and understanding the types of issues we deal with on a regular basis, as well as planning by some of the larger transit agencies such as NJ TRANSIT. ! My last comment is on the issue the we probably cannot change, which is the Census insistence on using the "longest distance" mode as to which mode to pick. This I believe is confusing, and we know it overstates auto usage in some areas, as we have considerable long drive to transit trips. IF there was any way to test changing this to ask if a person checked auto was transit used on any part of this trip, or to change to restriction in some way I think that would help as well. Finally, I do believe as one comment I saw said, that vanpool should be a separate mode. I would ask it under auto where I believe the question is 7 or more persons in the auto, to give two choices, one would be "Car or Truck, 7 or more persons, and then Vanpool, 7 or more persons. NJT does subsidize vanpools, and getting a handle on this would be useful. IF needed, I can send a formal email to you with these comments, and also can offer some other suggestions about where it would make sense to test these potential new wordings. As I have indicated, we do have almost the full range of modes within our service area, including ferry. In fact we have one of the few locations with commuter rail, Subway, Light Rail, and Ferry at the same location (Hoboken Terminal). Tom Marchwinski, Sr. Director Forecasting and Research , NJ TRANSIT _______________________________________________ ctpp-news mailing list ctpp-news(a)ryoko.chrispy.net http://ryoko.chrispy.net/mailman/listinfo/ctpp-news